Author Topic: With the long demise of leaded what type of fuels do you use?  (Read 7597 times)

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Offline Shorty64cad

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Re: With the long demise of leaded what type of fuels do you use?
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2008, 12:04:32 PM »
Hi Bruce,

Ah ha!  I didn't realise that petrol tanks are tinned, so could this create a problem?  Maybe.  This article from:

http://science.propeller.com/story/2006/07/07/ethanols-corrosive-little-secret/

Which states:

"Ethanol is more conductive than gasoline and will act as an electrolyte causing galvanic corrosion in the fuel system. This means that if you have two dissimilar materials meeting, like a steel fuel line connected to an aluminum fuel rail, the conductive ethanol will cause material to be removed from one surface and deposited on the other. This can end up clogging fuel injectors with metal. Wikipedia's entry on galvanic cells describes some of the ways this can be combatted. Ethanol will also decompose traditional plastic and rubber component as well."

And it seems that plastic tanks aren't immune from ethanol either.  More proof to stay away from ethanol blended fuels, I reckon.

I'm guessing that the 44 gallon drums of pure ethanol at work are just straight steel, without any lining.

Interesting what you can find out when you dig deeper.

Cheers,

Greg.


1969 Eldorado.
The Basin, Victoria.

Offline 60cdv

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Re: With the long demise of leaded what type of fuels do you use?
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2008, 10:20:49 PM »
I reckon that ethanol, like methanol, is hydroscopic (absorbs moisture from the atmosphere). That's why the metho/ water injection works (they mix).
That would account for the corrosion.
Bruce, I got the diesel into the fuel stream by removing the idle mixture screw (on my stromberg carby) and installing a small tube into that opening (I don't have a petrol system at all, so the mixture screw does nix).
I used a length of  copper refrigeration capillary line (1mm) and trimmed it untill I got a reasonable flow (guestimation, 10 drops/min at idle)
Ivan, Adelaide
60 Coupe Deville
1947 Chev Aero Sedan
1936 Ford roadster
1960 FB Holden
1971 HG Holden

Offline GMPX

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Re: With the long demise of leaded what type of fuels do you use?
« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2008, 12:40:34 AM »
Problem is we all got Ethanol 'scared' by the likes of ACA and Today tonight a few years back. Remember the "No Ethanol" signs servo's were putting up? But, now it's all 'Green' so it must be good.

In the US since 2002 Chevrolet and GMC have offered variants of the GenIII V8 that will run on 85% ethanol. Does that mean it makes 85 % less power than the 100% unleaded version?, of course not. Yes you do need to run richer with Ethanol so it will consume more fuel, but, if fuel consumption is a high concern with a 40 year old 2.5 tonne monster.......buy a Prius for cusing instead  ;D

Cheers,
Ross
Ross
Melbourne, The Nanny State
1964 Fleetwood - 6.0L/4speed LS conversion.

Offline kittykadjaz

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Re: With the long demise of leaded what type of fuels do you use?
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2008, 06:15:57 PM »
Thanks guys for your interesting replies on this topic. It looks set for the Premium Unleaded with the additive. I love the comment on the 40 year old 2.5 tonne monster!

Does anyone run LPG or is that a cardinal sin?
Jaz
1961 6-window Sedan DeVille
Central Coast, NSW

Offline Dale

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Re: With the long demise of leaded what type of fuels do you use?
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2008, 07:39:06 PM »
I LOVE LPG... (in my Commodore).

As for fitting it to the Caddy... NO!!! How dare you suggest such an abhorence. Next you'll be thinking of buying a Lincoln... or worse, a European car!!

Long live (petrol sucking) Cadillacs!

Dale.
Dale Stephens
1800FIRETRUCK.com.au
Melbourne.

Online Bruce Reynolds

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Re: With the long demise of leaded what type of fuels do you use?
« Reply #20 on: June 10, 2008, 11:00:44 PM »
The way I see it, fitting LPG to any vehicle is a poor reasoning in economics, unless you are driving it in excess of 70,000 Kilometres a year, and then it would take about 3 years to have it pay for the conversion.

Not to mention the loss of boot space the Tank takes up, and the limits of travelability when travelling on long distances.

Plus, if you are running on both LPG and Petrol, the performance is compromised on both counts as one cannot tune the car to run properly on both.

Bruce.>:D
Bruce Reynolds, Lindisfarne, TASMANIA
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Offline Dave & Deb

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Re: With the long demise of leaded what type of fuels do you use?
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2008, 06:18:51 PM »
Hi,
Now it's time for my response to the LPG debate.  As a qualified LPG and CNG mechanic and having done hundreds of conversions over a 10 year period I might be able to clear up some of the questions.

The main reason anyone would convert to LPG is to save money, simple as that!  You need to calculate the cost of the initial conversion and then with some quick maths on the cost of the fuel and the kilometres travelled you'll be able to figure out if it's worthwhile.
Sorry Bruce but 70,000km is off the mark.
At 20,000km using approx. 20 litres per hundred km at $1.60 per litre fuel costs will be $6400.00.
Using the same 20,000km using 25 litres per hundred at $0.70 per litre of LPG fuel costs will be $3500.00 over the same distance.  A saving of $2900.00 over a distance of 20,000km.  It's been 8 years since I got out of the trade but back then a good conversion was about $2000.00.

The larger the difference in price between petrol and LPG the larger the savings.

Yes Bruce I will agree with you on the boot space issue.  If someone is considering a conversion they will have to think how they use their boot and if the space that is sacrificed is worth the savings.

A straight gas conversion is better as there won't be the compromise between fuels and the result is usually better reliabilty.

A good conversion should drive like a good petrol car and most importantly the gas filler must be located somewhere discreet.  There's nothing worse than seeing a good car ruined with a 3" hole cut into the body because whoever fitted the gas was too lazy to hide it behind a flip back number plate or in the original petrol filler spot.  Another thing, in most cases it's possible to link the LPG guage into the original gauge on the dash.

There's a couple of tips for anyone considering a conversion but if anyone wants to pick my brains on anything else gas related please ask away.

I'm going to upset you now Dale.  I'm thinking I might convert my '58 limo and my '60 convertible to gas!

Dave

 
1958 Fleetwood Series 75
1959 Six Window Sedan
1960 Series 62 Convertible
1968 Pontiac Parisienne Convertible

Hunter Valley NSW

Offline kittykadjaz

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Re: With the long demise of leaded what type of fuels do you use?
« Reply #22 on: June 12, 2008, 12:31:06 AM »
Hi Dave,

Thanks for clearing up a few things about the LPG. What you have written makes perfect sense and backs up what I have known in the past about LPG.

It has always been the plan to convert the Caddy to LPG as I know when done right it will not deface the car in any serious ways that cannot be reversed.  I want to drive this Caddy once it is on the road and not have to save enormous amounts of pocket money just to take it out! But until it is done I was curious to see what fuels were the most common used.

Over the years I have had a few Chevrolet's and a couple of early V8 Holden's but none since leaded was disbanded so that was the reason the lack of knowledge on the fuel front.

Oh Dale, I have had my fair share of European/British cars and even looked at a Lincoln once  But always seem to come back to the older US GM cars ;)

Jaz
Jaz
1961 6-window Sedan DeVille
Central Coast, NSW

Offline 60cdv

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Re: With the long demise of leaded what type of fuels do you use?
« Reply #23 on: June 12, 2008, 06:25:06 PM »
 I have just converted both our daily drivers (Holden red 6's), and they cost around $2300 each. The carby cars are still fairly cheap to convert, if you have a late model (injected) car, it can cost you up to $4000!.
It shouln't cost much more to do a single-carby Caddy, and if you want to run straight LPG, you can get a modified distributer (they are the same as Chev) to suit LPG.
You could always disconnect the fuel system and leave it there (in case you sell the car), and adjust your timing to suit LPG only.
I run it at about 18 advanced, it takes a bit of experimenting to get it right (unless you stick it on a dyno!)

Ivan, Adelaide
60 Coupe Deville
1947 Chev Aero Sedan
1936 Ford roadster
1960 FB Holden
1971 HG Holden

Offline Dave & Deb

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Re: With the long demise of leaded what type of fuels do you use?
« Reply #24 on: June 12, 2008, 07:06:47 PM »
Hi Jaz,

If you want to convert your '61 to gas, go for it!

I'm not familiar with '61 Cadillacs but if the boot is similar to a '59 you may have a problem with the gas tank.  On '59s there is insufficient space under the parcel shelf to fit a tank of reasonable size.  It might be worth looking at two smaller tanks, one down each side of the boot.  I used to use APA tanks from Victoria. They can make custom lengths for not much more than a standard size tank.
I would recommend an "Impco 425" gas mixer which would replace the existing carby and you can still use a standard air filter.
Impco is an American brand with outstanding reliabilty.  There is also European conversion kits available but my experience with V8 cars has shown the American stuff to work really well.  I found the European stuff difficult to keep in tune, particularly at idle.

Is that too much info or would you like to know more?

Dave
 
1958 Fleetwood Series 75
1959 Six Window Sedan
1960 Series 62 Convertible
1968 Pontiac Parisienne Convertible

Hunter Valley NSW

Offline kittykadjaz

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Re: With the long demise of leaded what type of fuels do you use?
« Reply #25 on: June 12, 2008, 07:51:45 PM »
60cdv, that price of around $2300 to convert your cars is pretty cheap, quite surprising really. Where are you based?

Thanks Dave for all your advise. You are right about the boot space there is not a lot under the boot shelf so the dual tanks is a great idea. Do they work as one or are they independently operational?

The switch to pure gas would probably be the better option especially since you can hide it all under the filter. Is the mixer you are talking about available here or is it something that is cheaper to bring in from the US?

I like your advice and more is good. I am a qualified mechanic and during tafe times my teacher one year was an LPG guru but that was in the mid 80's and have not done much with the gas since so I have forgotten most things about it.

Jaz
Jaz
1961 6-window Sedan DeVille
Central Coast, NSW

Offline Dave & Deb

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Re: With the long demise of leaded what type of fuels do you use?
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2008, 06:11:09 PM »
Hi again Jaz,
Being a qualified mechanic you'll probably know you can't do a conversion unless your a qualified LPG mechanic as well.
I converted a '68 Pontiac I used to own to straight gas using dual tanks and they ran as a single unit.  One filler valve with a "T" piece and they both supplied the engine together.  The only time you knew there was two tanks was when the boot was opened.  Even the gauge was linked into one.  A 1968 Chev or Pontiac uses a fuel gauge which is 0 ohms empty and 90 ohms full.  By using 2x 0-45 ohm LPG tank guages linked together it added up to 90ohms.  What the Cadillac uses on the dashboard I haven't checked but I'm sure something similar could be done.  The LPG tank gauge senders are available in a variety of resistances.
The Impco brand of LPG conversion gear is available commonly in Australia.  I used to use a company called Gasparts in Alexandria, Sydney.  Impco is only for the gas carby and the converter, the part that converts from liquid to vapour.
Unless you know what you're doing with the LPG stuff I wouldn't recommend doing it yourself because while LPG is extremely safe when fitted correctly it is also extremely dangerous when done incorrectly.
As mentioned before there is the American Impco brand and the European stuff.  Being a connoisseur of American automobiles you'll already know that American stuff far exceeds anything to come out of Europe.  In my opinion the same applies to LPG conversion equipment.  Look for a LPG conversion workshop that uses Impco.  That statement will probably upset the LPG workshops that use other stuff, but, I'm always right!  I know this because I tell my wife I'm right all the time.  Maybe one day she'll believe me!

Go to Hornsby and talk to my brother-in-law Greg at AGM Automotive.  He did a lot of conversions with me when I was on the tools and he knows his stuff.  I don't think he's got his certification yet from the MVRIC but he's looking into it.  His number is 9477 2346.  Tell him Dave sent you.

Good luck,
Dave

     
   
1958 Fleetwood Series 75
1959 Six Window Sedan
1960 Series 62 Convertible
1968 Pontiac Parisienne Convertible

Hunter Valley NSW

Offline GMPX

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Re: With the long demise of leaded what type of fuels do you use?
« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2008, 07:24:43 PM »
It shouln't cost much more to do a single-carby Caddy, and if you want to run straight LPG, you can get a modified distributer (they are the same as Chev) to suit LPG.

Say what? Chev Dizzy the same as Caddy?

Cheers,
Ross
Ross
Melbourne, The Nanny State
1964 Fleetwood - 6.0L/4speed LS conversion.

Offline 60cdv

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Re: With the long demise of leaded what type of fuels do you use?
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2008, 08:00:10 PM »
Yep, the same AC delco dizzy was used in all the GM cars (at least in 1960). It has the small window next to the points so you can adjust your dwell angle while it is running (excellent idea).
The only part you may find different is the drive end ( I haven't had to take mine out for anything yet, so I couldn't compare it). So if you are looking for a distributor cap, try asking for one to suit the Chev-engined HK holden.
Ivan, Adelaide
60 Coupe Deville
1947 Chev Aero Sedan
1936 Ford roadster
1960 FB Holden
1971 HG Holden

Offline GMPX

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Re: With the long demise of leaded what type of fuels do you use?
« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2008, 09:22:24 AM »
Actually what I wanted was to convert it to electronic ignition. I know there is the Pertronix ones ( http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/ignitor/default.aspx ) that are specific for the 60's Cadillac engines, but I think they cost too much so I would rather use OEM Chev parts if possible (somehow).
Ideally I want to convert it over to the GM HEI system (which is very good) -
http://www.pertronix.com/prod/ig/flame/dist/hei.aspx

Cheers,
Ross
Ross
Melbourne, The Nanny State
1964 Fleetwood - 6.0L/4speed LS conversion.